zoroaster

What about the elephants?

Yup - annoying. The answer seems to be always elusively fractalian; the deeper you go, the deeper it goes.

IMO none of this is really operating on a high level of abstraction. We can observe black holes, we can observe that they attract light and matter, etc etc.

That said - I agree w/ the point about whether or not these questions even make sense to ask when we (collectively) ultimately know so little. This is why I wanted to ask it in a public forum in the first place - to test my understanding and to see if there are others I can learn from who might have a more advanced understanding. These aren't exactly questions that people will leap to answer in the office or in daily conversation. That's why I wanted to bring it here, where I feel people are generally more thoughtful and insightful concerning existential topics.

I've appreciated a lot of the links to other resources, and pushback on some of the assertions. They have been and are helpful!

Epic - this fits into category 2 with the "big crunch" situation, but the nothingness / heat death of the universe one also seems possible. I think the gravitational pull of a supermassive black hole consisting of all black holes in the universe would probably overwhelm the expansion force and draw everything into it, but who knows.

Very cool - thanks for sending.

Sorry :(

I feel for you; I wish I had a trigger warning on existential questions this AM too.

Yes, note that I say the equal universes situation only occurs if the conditions are the same (which I agree is unlikely). They would have to be exactly the same to result in copy universes given even the slightest variation in initial conditions would compound into vastly different outcomes.

I think, in the black holes example this outcome is unlikely given even slightly more matter or quarks absorbed would differentiate the system. This would be the "parallelish" outcomes where slightly differences would compound over time. But if there's a limiting condition that only allows for one starting point, then you get the same duplicate outcomes.

In the same way that certain elements consistently arise as a result of fusion in a star, perhaps the same types of universes might arise here. You might have a "Hydrogen" universe, a "Helium" universe, an "Iron" universe dependent on the threshold that initiates a certain "big bang" / that create initial starting points that are "absolutely, precisely identical without question". This is a bit out there, probably wrong. I have no idea.

I'm not sure I'm explaining my thinking very well, but if only so much energy / matter can break through the other side of a black hole and it breaks through in the same way every time then you would get parallel, equal universes.

I am a huge fan of your usage of chaos theory to address this question - I appreciate it.

I think asking the question makes sense even if the answer is "no answer". It's interesting to think about and to explore, and helpful to get the input of others.

By the "sameness" point - I mean that in a deterministic universe where initial conditions are precisely the same, that the same universe structure will continue to arise and play out over and over again (putting aside quantum uncertainty). While the "ship" may not be the "same" ship, it will still be a ship and not a refrigerator.

Very frustrating and you end up with the same problem.

I have some fun thoughts around this problem which is maybe just as a lonely sculptor might sculpt a human-like figure that they can converse with to feel less alone (and from "one" make "two"), maybe a universal consciousness decided to create something & the illusion of "separatedness" (from one, many) in consciousness to feel less alone. Hence make a universe with lots of manifestations of consciousness to observe and interact with one another, and keep any true knowledge of itself a mystery to preserve the illusion.

But that's not a very scientific perspective, and all the questions above still remain.

This is very interesting - thank you for sending. His "cyclic cosmology" somewhat fits into 2 but with a different flavor. And given you reach a stage of maximum entropy during the heat death of the universe prior to folding back into a new singularity - it seems the same result would still occur each time given no changes in initial conditions.

I'm sort of leaning towards LinuxBender here in thinking this is all some infinite movie on loop generated bc consciousness was bored by itself in the dark.

I agree - and why?

My fun answer for this one is that there is a future civilization facing collapse / extinction / "great filter" and they're (humans or AI) running infinite life simulations to try to determine what actions will give them the greatest probability of escape / survival. We're living in one of those simulated worlds. But that's very human / AI centric, and doesn't answer any of the same questions higher up. Maybe they know.