evnc

I’m not opposed to this but, curious, what do we gain from such reconceptualization?

Oh, okay, I get the value prop now. Thank you. They should hire you to write their marketing copy, you did a better job than the landing page.

Tana is basically a programming environment disguised as a text editor (in this way, it follows in the grand tradition of emacs you could say)

doh, good point. will fix this, I acknowledge I sort of handwaved the example. thanks for the correction!

one more, for completeness:

  SELECT 'black' AS outline_color
  FROM elements parent
  JOIN elements child ON parent.id = child.parent_id
  WHERE parent.data_theme = 'light'
    AND child.data_theme = 'dark'
    AND child.focused = true

there's a lot of ways to express the same thing! it's interesting to notice the connections between them, I think, and their strengths and weaknesses, e.g. I probably wouldn't want to write my whole design system in SQL, but since it's relational queries over the elements structure and properties, you could.

yeah I mean, to be clear, I'm less proposing "What if we add even more syntax and semantics to CSS" and more "what if we steal ideas from CSS, notice their similarity to logic / relational query languages, and use them to build something new". I probably could have articulated some of this better.

eg this example:

  [data-theme="dark"] [data-theme="light"] :focus {
      outline-color: black;
  }

means, in English/pseudocode, roughly: "If you have an element X with attribute data-theme="dark", and X has a child Y with attribute data-theme="light", and Y is focused, then the outline-color of Y is black".

so we could write this also as, e.g.:

  outline-color(Y, black) if 
    data-theme(X, "dark") and
    parent(X, Y) and
    data-theme(Y, "light") and
    focused(Y)

that's Datalog, except I went ahead and replaced :- with "if" and "," with "and".

if we want even more syntax sugar, we could do:

  Y.outline_color := black if
    X.data-theme == dark and
    Y.parent == X and
    Y.data-theme == dark and
    Y.focused

imagine `X.attr == val` <==> `attr(X, val)` as a kind of UFCS for Datalog to make it palatable to Regular Programmers, right

the declaration and scope of these variables is implicit here; if you want something even more ALGOL-family, we could write

  forall Y {
    Y.outline_color := black if 
       Y.data_theme == "dark" and
       Y.focused and
       Y.parent.data_theme == "light"
  }

here we've explicitly introduced Y, and made one of our joins implicit, and it looks even more like Regular Programming now, except the Datalog engine (or equivalent) is kind of running all these loops for you, every time one of their dependencies changes, in an efficient way ...

oh this is fun

> we copy and reapply patterns in different contexts and that might enable unexpected things

yeah, that's exactly what I am trying to do here. Mostly it doesn't go anywhere, but it's interesting for the hacker spirit within me :)

tbh, this started as a connection of two disparate ideas ("hey, this thing looks like this other thing"), and then just kind of explores it in different directions.

I think the conclusion (which I may not have made clear enough) is less like "These are limitations of modern CSS which ought to be fixed" and more "Maybe a CSS-like syntax could be added to a Datalog-like system and that would be helpful for making it more accessible to more engineers, navigating tree-shaped data, etc"

thanks for the feedback, anyway!

oh this is neat! Feels like exactly the sort of thing I was gesturing towards. Thanks :)

sure! You can email me at [email protected] (throwaway email), and we could go from there?

I broadly agree with you, so I want to pick your brain a bit:

What would your ideal RDBMS / tooling look like, that facilitates 6nf effectively? Do you think it's more a limitation of the query/storage engine, or the query language (SQL), or the user interface? Do you think founding on Datalog (or similar), which kinda lends itself to "narrow" relations, instead of SQL which kinda lends itself to "wide" relations, would help here?

(I ask as one of my personal hobby-horses is trying to design better query languages and tooling, and 6nf/datalog maintains a kinda special place in my heart)