xpe
Joined 14 years ago
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Comment · 5 months ago
Sorry, I was too harsh. Or to be more precise: I should not have directed my criticism only at this particular blog post. This topic is a hot mess. Yes, even the 2019 blog post announcing Async Rust [1] used the phrase:
> On this coming Thursday, November 7, async-await syntax hits stable Rust, as part of the 1.39.0 release. This work has been a long time in development -- the key ideas for zero-cost futures, for example, were first proposed by Aaron Turon and Alex Crichton in 2016! -- and we are very proud of the end result. We believe that Async I/O is going to be an increasingly important part of Rust's story.
> While this first release of "async-await" is a momentous event, it's also only the beginning. The current support for async-await marks a kind of "Minimum Viable Product" (MVP). We expect to be polishing, improving, and extending it for some time.
> Already, in the time since async-await hit beta, we've made a lot of great progress, including making some key diagnostic improvements that help to make async-await errors far more approachable. To get involved in that work, check out the Async Foundations Working Group; if nothing else, you can help us by filing bugs about polish issues or by nominating those bugs that are bothering you the most, to help direct our efforts.
---
MVP originated from the lean startup world: the core meaning is to build the smallest thing that validates demand. Async-await (a-a) was so much more than that.
Whoever wrote the blog post wrote "MVP" which leaves a reader wondering: are those scare quotes? [2]
Nice a-a was "in the air" since Go shipped it in 2009. Compiled state machines hit the scene not long after: C# in 2012, Clojure in 2013. So demand did not need validation. As I understand it, probably the biggest driver for Rust a-a was to provide a common foundation for work going forward.
The effort and thinking that went into async/await probably blows away 99.9% of MVPs released out into the world! And I don't think it would be crazy to say Rust's a-a was better than ~80% of even "1.0" products.
I don't want to get bogged down in mere definitions... I'm emphasizing the primary emotional vibe. Using MVP (or "MVP") is a surefire way to conjure the wrong emotional valence. It invites confusion and downplays years of incredible work.
My feeling is that original blog post used that framing because the Rust team is famously open to taking however much time is needed to get things as close to perfect as they know how.
[1]: https://blog.rust-lang.org/2019/11/07/Async-await-stable/
Comment · 5 months ago
> So on the title, I picked this because it's simply the truth. Since async landed in 2019 or so, not much has changed.
Hi. The article calls Rust async an MVP. You should expect strong reactions when you frame it like that.
"MVP" has a generally understood meaning; distorting that is unhelpful and confusing. Rust's async was not an MVP when it was released in 2019. It was the result of a lot of earlier work.
Rust async: (a) works well for a lot of people and orgs in production settings and (b) is arguably better designed than most (all?) other async implementations. Calling it an MVP is far from "simply the truth". It is an opinion -- and frankly a pretty clickbaity one. I appreciate your article's attention to detail, but the title is straight up shameful sensationalism.
I strive to not reflexively defend the status quo, but I get really chafed when people conveniently blur the difference between fact and opinion.
Please argue on narrowest correct claims available. The current title overstates your claims and undermines its overall credibility. Your central claim (as I read it) is that for embedded software there are opportunities for async improvement in Rust. Yeah this might sound boring, but I think it's accurate.
My other main criticism of your article is when it claims Rust async breaks the "zero cost abstraction" principle. I don't buy this claim, because you do not show that hand rolling the code provides the same guarantees. A lot of people misunderstand what "zero cost" means; your article wouldn't be the first to give the wrong impression.
Writing is hard (different audiences bring different backgrounds), and I commend anyone who puts their ideas out into the world. Please take this as constructive feedback: please agree or disagree with me on the merits. Ask and engage where I'm unclear.
Comment · 5 months ago
Claim-1: the async versus sync distinction cannot be meaningfully dissolved at the programmer level.
Claim-2: async versus sync is a fundamental division in CS
Discuss amongst yourselves. I lean towards thinking both are probably true (P~70%, P~90%)
See: “What Color is Your Function?” by Bob Nystrom (2015). https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-...
Comment · 6 months ago
> Especially for something like a code editor, where plenty of less-shady competitors are available.
On what basis are you claiming Zed is shady? I seek evidence, not feels.
If you don't understand the contract language, it seems rather presumptuous to make that kind of claim. See what I mean?
If you want to make a _relative_ claim, then I have to ask: have you read the licenses of VS Code, JetBrains, Cursor, WindSurf?
Comment · 6 months ago
>Several people at work, none use OpenClaw, had their limits jump immediately to 100%.
Substantively: assuming this is true, what are the possible explanations? If they don't use OpenClaw, wouldn't this suggest there is some other cause?
What company? Will these people go on the record?
We live in a world where it is irrational for me to put much credence in a HN account. I see it has 125 karma and was created in January 2022.
Comment · 6 months ago
So far, after reading ~20 HN comments, I see one mention of something akin to "I verified this myself". Where are the people saying "Maybe this is true, but please tell me you considered other explanations first!"
I try to avoid X, and I put relatively low credence in a HN account I don't know. [1] Browsing X, it looks like something like 1 out of 20 say they verified.
Who here has _verified_ this claim or can find a _quality_ source that has? Not X. Someone who will take serious reputational or financial damage if they are wrong?
It is 2026. Think about epistemics. What do you believe and why? And why should I believe you if you aren't asking this question?
This situation has many characteristics of being an information cascade. [2] Raise your hand if you piled on before thinking it through. Be honest. Everyone does it sometimes. Intellectually honest people own it.
P.S. I am _not_ making a claim about the original statement. Don't shoot the messenger: somebody needs to say what I'm saying.
[1]: "We cannot trust identity like we used to here on HN ... we live in a world or anyone or any AI can claim almost anything ... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47804884
Comment · 6 months ago
The comment above has started a sh-tstorm. Please, slow down and learn about the details before jumping to conclusions. Most of us here did NOT "go pro" in the law. [1] For those that want to educate themselves, you could do worse than immediately leave HN and go _learn_:
1. SaaS Agreements: Key Contractual Provisions https://www.americanbar.org/groups/business_law/resources/bu...
2. Cornell Law School's Wex: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex
3. Coursera : American Contract Law I (Yale prof): https://www.coursera.org/learn/contracts-1
4. Software as a Service (SaaS) Agreements: Thomson Reuters/Westlaw (paywalled; trial available) https://content.next.westlaw.com/practical-law/document/I61c...
If anyone has good detailed resources that are free, please add.
[1] IANAL but I wasn't that far from going down that path. I've worked for a legal-tech startup, did really well in an undergrad Constitutional Law class, incorporated several small companies, managed lots of contractor agreements. So, I know from experience: legal language is weird and specific in ways you may not realize. So be intellectually humble and defer judgment until you talk to a legal expert. Hopefully people more experienced than I can weigh in with more specifics.
Comment · 6 months ago
This language fits common SaaS templates. Let me illustrate by removing chunks and labeling them:
Customer hereby grants Zed
{{ broad list of rights }}
solely:
{{ for these purposes }}
Also see "4.4. Telemetry: .... For avoidance of doubt, Telemetry expressly does not include Customer Data."
My two cents: I'm not worried about Zed's contract here. Much more important to pay attention to when your data goes to third-party AI providers: read _their_ contract language.
Meta-comment: Don't let a well-meaning comment like the above trigger a panic. Better to get familiar with typical contracts and/or build your personal network for legal advice.
P.S. Look out for shameless legal slop on the Web, I "promise.legal" it is out there.
Comment · 6 months ago
1. Yes, Zed is open source, you can build it yourself.
2. Telemetry defaults to on. So turn off telemetry as explained at https://zed.dev/docs/telemetry#configuring-telemetry-setting...
"telemetry": {
"diagnostics": false,
"metrics": false,
},Comment · 6 months ago
Which Macs, hardware, OS's? What's your baseline comparison?
Comment · 6 months ago
If the idea of hiding extra Markdown elements or making it more WYSIWYG appeals to you, maybe we can put more eyes on some kind of feature request. I've seeing several comments come at this from different angles: ?id=47950471 ?id=47950748
Comment · 6 months ago
> Also extensions can't add new UI, so you are stuck fitting to the recipe Zed team provides for you to plug into, and often enough this is not satisfactory.
What did you have in mind for "new UI"? I'm hoping to see basic text transformation myself: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47950471
Comment · 6 months ago
What's your favorite theme, maybe we can point you to something close? If you have any special needs or usability issues (colorblindness is common), that's probably relevant too.
I use the default theme + the Catppuccin Icon Theme : https://github.com/catppuccin/zed-icons
Comment · 6 months ago
I wish Zed had built-in APIs for extension developers to allow for more customizable text transformations. In particular, I want to write tools that have more control over what a buffer displays. Imagine a Markdown extension that gives Zed something close to the WYSIWG experience of Obsidian. To make this happen, I think something like a customizable presentation layer to transform the buffer's contents and adjust cursor movement would be a great start. Vim has a 'conceal' feature that could serve as an inspiration or reference point. [1]
I have no affiliation with Zed, though I have applied to work there, so I'm hardly neutral. I've been an enthusiastic user for probably two years. I don't expect perfect alignment with what I want, and sometimes the team doesn't respond how I would like with particular issues. But man, in a pretty suboptimal world right now, Zed is an amazing thing to have: open source, regular updates, extensions, nice settings. In the past I've used BBEdit, Eclipse, TextEdit, Sublime, Emacs, VS Code, Jetbrains, Helix. Zed is my favorite by far, probably because of the latency. It is an intangible feeling that just clicked immediately for me.
Personally, as a mostly independent developer/researcher, I go through bursts of re-evaluating my tools. To give some context about my newer tools over the last few years: Ghostty, Nushell, Podman, Nix, Mochi, Monodraw, Swish (window manager for macOS), Base (macOS SQLite editor by Menial), LM Studio, (probably obviously) Claude Code. So for a "seasoned" developer, I'm probably more open to new tools than most? Oh, totally off-topic but I think some of the lesser appreciated new open source tools / formats / conventions are: KDL (https://kdl.dev), Typst, and (evaluating) Djot, Cocogitto (Conventional Commits, took me long enough).
[1] https://alok.github.io/2018/04/26/using-vim-s-conceal-to-mak...
Comment · 6 months ago
Here is a top-level comment for people who want to post the things they wish Zed had.
Request: please be sincere if you claim "the one thing that keeps me from using Zed is X" ... because let's face it, there is probably more than one thing. Editor ecosystems are complex beasts, and it is ok if people are slow to switch, but the "one thing" claims are rarely credible to me. Anyhow, such comments are rarely consistent with how human nature works. People find rationalizations, and that's fine. It would just be nice if people were a little more self-aware. Changing editors is harder for some people more than others.
My suggestion: if you want to make Zed better for your use case, please smart by explaining who you are as a developer, what you've used, what your expectations are. And be intellectually honest about the last time you've made a big change to your development workflow. End soapbox.
I care a lot about community and discussion quality. With effort, patience, kindness, and curiousity, we can do great things. So let's invest in our culture. Let's strive to get better at learning and listening.
If I was snide or rude to you in the past, I apologize. Life is a journey. Sometimes my desire to state the truth comes too bluntly. I'm aware and error correcting.
I have been accused of writing like an LLM.
If you've made such an accusation at me, I would request that you reconsider. Consider asking "What if I'm wrong?" If you are, there is a person on the other end.
When I hear such an accusation, I have been bothered in the past. But what's the point in that? Lately, I take it as a compliment, since I often rather like how LLMs write, to the extent the sequence of tokens is organized, clear, and the result of an intelligent process.*
More generally, if one doesn't have a reliable way to get to ground truth, one is blind w.r.t. predictive accuracy. Basically, this is a fancy way of saying "recognize your own fallibility" and "calibrate yourself".
If all the above doesn't ~land~ (Claude has ruined this word for me) err.. connect with you, consider this: intellectually humility helps unlock many other valuable things.
Finally, if one can't distinguish human from machine, what follows from that? Think about it. Better yet, write.
Thanks, Xeno Phobia Extractor
* Some examples of what I mean by intelligence:
- intelligence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43236444
- general intelligence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43223521
- pressure towards AGI: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41707643
- intelligence as "what machines cannot do" / no physics-based constraints to surpass human intelligence: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44974963
--
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^ scrapers, bots, etc., ... this applies to you.
Note: I borrowed the license comment from /user?id=kelseyfrog.