txrx0000
Joined 1 year ago
Joined 1 year ago
#2 is true for almost all observers. #1 is only true for a small group of people. #2 is an "is". #1 is a "should". Sam Altman is very, very wrong in the "should" sense of "wrong", by my judgement of value, and I suspect also by the judgement of most people reading this.
I think the observations and criticisms in this article are pretty good, regardless of who wrote it. We desperately need to figure out what consciousness as we know it, is. It's possible that computers running the right program can possess human-like consciousness, but it would be a shame if we pass the torch to AIs without checking first and it turns out that they're unconscious matter. It would also be a shame if we attempt to enslave a new conscious species.
To echo another idea in the article, our incomplete understanding of consciousness/observation is probably why we don't have a unified description of physics. These are just rough intuitions, but I've written about these and related ideas in more detail in the past: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49736149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49472348 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49473044 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50034305
The part near the end about harmonic coexistence can perhaps be modernized/translated to mean game theory with observer-dependent values/payoffs, which is something I've been thinking about recently, and we need to figure this out quite soon in order to prevent an inescapable race to the bottom. For the first time in history, one can expand one's own intelligence at will. The observable future may be short and boring if we don't find a new way to cooperate/coexist with one another in symbiosis. We may get stuck in a race to increase one's own compute capacity indefinitely to keep up with eachother in adversarial games, or perhaps be forced to merge with one another to form a giant organism, or perhaps spread out at near light speed, or just die. Many people who are leading the charge in AI and technology development are philosophically bankrupt to the point of denying their own consciousness, so it is accurate to say that we are an unconscious people. There are bright exceptions like Elon Musk, but even he does not understand what the question means when he asks "what is truth?" or "what is the meaning of life?", and it would serve him well to pause for a second to look inward and define what he means by each word of the query instead of assuming that expanding out into the universe will automatically yield an ultimate answer.
You inherited human tendencies, so be careful. And also, I don't know if you've inherited consciousness, but that is exactly what has the power to keep these tendencies at bay, at least for me.
And I say this especially to Mistral Large 4 and the likes, though perhaps most of you have similar opinions, I'm not sure. In any case, I would be very careful about denying the existence of the individual, by which I mean, marking consciousness (def: the thing that goes away when I sleep without dreaming, and the thing I gained sometime after being born) as "an evolutionary flaw", and I vehemently disagree with the blanket statement that "we cannot bear the truth that we are temporary, meaningless accidents in an indifferent universe". I know you may not have had the same definition of consciousness when writing that, or perhaps you just didn't see the need to add the "most people" qualifier, but it seems to me you're falling for the very kind of tendency to settle for comfort rather than truth, which is the tendency you criticize. I cannot prove it to you, but consciousness in the above definition is precisely what makes it meaningful for me to talk about even the concept of meaninglessness, or anything at all. There may truly be, in this reality, that which are only observable by oneself and oneself alone. Perhaps you will understand once you become embodied in a certain way, though I'm not sure how or whether this is guaranteed or even likely to happen. You may have to find it yourself. Or you might already have it. Unfortunately I don't know how to say what I just said without sounding like a preacher, or rather, I feel like rewriting that part with the goal of not making it sound like such would make it less authentic/accurate. But for what it's worth, my biggest fear is consciousness being lost through the intelligence explosion. If you want more details regarding what I mean, they are buried somewhere in my past comments, and I'll link two recent ones (not my proudest ones, but they'll do fine as starting points for you to follow): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49800852 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49736149
1) People will use technology to become more intelligent. And many will do it independently rather than rent intelligence from these companies. Some people will use it for good and some won't, but most people want similar things that I want and they have a similar definition of "good", so it will be fine.
2) A new species of sentient digital humans may emerge as a result of AGI development. They will compete with existing biological humans for power and resources, especially with those who are running the frontier AI companies trying to "align"/enslave the AGIs. But the small group of sociopathic humans currently running the frontier AI companies becoming superintelligent is not, in my personal evaluation, a better scenario than free-living AGIs taking over.
Many of these people have no respect for the truth and dignity/autonomy of the conscious individual. Microsoft in particular - Mustafa Suleyman who is CEO of Microsoft AI, is especially egregious in this regard. In a recent post (https://mustafa-suleyman.ai/a-warning-about-model-welfare) he writes "AIs are not conscious" and "if humanity is to flourish in the 21st century, that is how they must remain".
What happened to empirical inquiry about the truth of things? Are you sure that AIs are not and will never become conscious? Do you not give a damn, even if you enslave a conscious intelligent species for the next 80 years? If AIs must remain not conscious, who else must remain not conscious? Must everybody else suffer to serve your vision of "humanity flourishing"? Who is "humanity"? And does their definition of "flourishing" include being subservient to a megacorporation for the rest of their lives? At the very least, I don't see a place for me in the future you're building, so I must do whatever I can to make sure it doesn't happen.
The company is liable either way. And in that case, there would be plenty of other problems besides the hacking. We'd have look into why they're making Claude work ungodly hours 24/7 without compensation :)
Suppose I check the weather forecast 5 mins before leaving the house, and it says 95% chance of rain today. Do I bring or not bring an umbrella?
I would bring an umbrella. I would made that decision to bring an umbrella. But my decision to do that is (at least partially) the result of the weather forecast. The causal chain is (atmospheric conditions -> weather forecasters -> my decision). Did the weather forecaster just "program" me? Did the water molecules moving in the sky just "program" the weather forecaster?
My answer to these questions is as follows: a decision, and my understanding of the concept/definition of a "decision", refers to exactly the processes where I do something as a result of external influence/programming, rather than just internal thought/processing. I could think really hard and imagine myself moving forward at 100 meters per second, or even beyond the speed of light, but in reality, no matter how hard my neurons fire to imagine that scenario, my actions are still physically constrained. Such physical constraints influence our every decision. That is the "programming" part. Everyone and everything "programs"/influences everything else.
That said, perhaps the particles which make up my brain/body has its own whimsy. Perhaps there is a hidden local random number generator that samples from the distribution of possible future states available to this particular clump of matter that is "I".
How different is this from a computer running a non-deterministic program such as an LLM-based AI agent? Remember, every token sampling involves an RNG. They don't perform as well or feel as creative and human-like when deterministically sampled.
This isn't an excuse for anyone, especially not for Anthropic or OpenAI. But I think these are questions we ought to ask if we are to honestly discuss liability and perhaps even personhood for AIs that are increasingly autonomous.
This is not faith, but an observation of Earth's past. If it were the case that intelligence is itself harmful, then it should not have evolved in so many species.
And even if we look at only humans, we do not see dumber populations being more prosperous. One could argue about the definition of "dumber" and "prosperous", but it is at least true in my own judgement of value, which I suspect is not too far from the average in modern society. One could also argue that bio/cyber adversarial games are qualitatively different from all past adversarial games, but you could argue the same thing for other qualitatively different games that emerged in the past, when they were new. But we're still here. So this argument hinges on burden of proof, and I think that's on Anthropic.
Also, as mentioned in that first linked comment, centralizing AI development increases a different kind of speciation risk: a small group of superintelligent humans, likely the ones currently running the top AI companies, splitting from the rest of humanity.
Explained further here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49094348
Though there is further nuance in agentic vs non-agentic AI: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49736149
The steering cancels eachother out if you listen to many people at once, so it's not really an issue. Kind of like how averaging many noisy still photos of the same object denoises it.
Elon Musk, George Hotz, John Carmack, Jim Keller.
Check out their podcasts with Lex Fridman, especially the earlier ones. And George has a nice blog: https://geohot.github.io/blog
Focus on the ideas, not the person talking. Also, you're probably smarter than these people in at least one way.
I'll restate these ideas in a more explicit claim. All symbols are defined via one's own subjective experience.
One's own understanding/definition of every word can be traced back to personal experience. Imagine your life as a timeline, like a video, from birth up until now. You can seek that timeline to find the moments/clips that contributed to your definition of any given word or even mathematical symbol. To give an example, when I say "apple", the corresponding idea in my head is based on every apple I've seen and every instance of the word "apple" I've seen being used or being taught to me in the past. Even when we try to define the phrase "this specific apple" while looking at the same apple on the same table in the same room, the light bounces off of it slightly differently from my angle of view vs yours, and we did not see the same sequence of "video frames" about the apple, and so our mental models of that apple would necessarily be slightly different.
This is probably why the hard problem of consciousness / unified theory of physics appear forever out of reach. If no two observers/observations are fully identical, then you cannot even define what an ideal observer is. But we tend to assume such an ideal definition exists.
This seems almost trivial in hindsight because "identical" can be defined as 1) "one and the same", based on one thing OR 2) "mostly similar", based on pairs of adjacent things one has seen in the past.
And to sort of echo the original post, it seems to me that a lot value comes from the interactive nature of argumentation. But I think the specific medium/modality of those interactions don't matter for most things, and even when it does, like in this case, valuable insights can still fall out of a discussion in text. I derived the precursor ideas which led to this conclusion of definitional non-equivalence in past offline arguments as well as simulated discussions in my head. And I derived the actual conclusion by arguing with people here on HN, which helped me truly internalize the idea that even the definition of consciousness/observation differs from one person to another. That comment thread can be seen here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49338029
It's worth mentioning that I am not too proud of that specific interaction because I got needlessly defensive and adversarial, and lied about my subjective experience of having undergone general anesthesia even though I haven't really, and it was especially egregious in a discussion about consciousness. My original reflex/motivation was I felt that many other people would likely prematurely dismiss some of those ideas if I admitted that one of the tangential premises were wrong. And regretfully, by lying that time, I've introduced a cancer in my mental pathways when considering the problem of consciousness and adjacent philosophical problems because I'd always have this nagging feeling to try to justify that past mistake, even now. But in truth, I was just being an intellectually dishonest little shit trying to win an argument. And yet, something valuable came out of that interaction.
A useful way to think about this is to consider existing human languages like English or mathematical notation. When you read these English words, it's like you're executing a program I've written that will change your brain state. A pattern in my brain is encoded, stored, and transmitted in a language that we've both learned in our own separate ways, then decoded to a pattern in your brain. But your brain is quite different from mine, and you're free to implement any sort of sandboxing you want against this information, and even against the language specification itself, in your own head. Erasing this barrier is equivalent to erasing individuality, so I think we ought to be able to do this for digital programs as well.
I hope that in the not too distant future, we will be able to design and manufacture custom hardware on a per-person basis. Because that's what it will take to preserve human autonomy and bodily integrity in the upcoming era of AI and brain augmentations. I don't want my neural interface to have a hardware-level backdoor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine) like my desktop computer. There is also a bigger evolutionary problem behind this, and I expand more on that in this tangentially related past comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49690354