pazimzadeh
Joined 15 years ago
Joined 15 years ago
Also why would you have to spend $6000? You can get a refurbished 16-inch M5 Pro with 48 Gb RAM and 1 Tb SSD from Apple for $3000.
A few years ago (April 25, 2023) I made my first significant edit to wikipedia on the Linus Pauling article, which was not up to date on its discussion of how Vitamin C affects cancer (2005-09 era papers).
The crux of the issue is that route of administration affects what Vitamin C does in the body, with opposing effects (pro-oxidant vs anti-oxidant and also changes how much vitamin C can get in the blood by orders of magnitude), so it’s almost a different drug depending on how take it. See review article in a few paragraphs.
The Wikipedia article focused on the lack of benefit of oral Vitamin C supplementation while barely mentioning recent successes in human trials or that attempts to repeat Pauling’s cancer trial didn’t use IV vitamin C.
So after this sentence in the article lead “None of his ideas concerning the medical usefulness of large doses of vitamins have gained much acceptance in the mainstream scientific community.” I added this: “However, attempts to replicate Linus Pauling's work did not use the exact method of delivery and specific molecules as the original experiments promoted by Pauling.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Linus_Pauling&dif...
And cited this secondary source, which itself cites reviews of multiple human clinical trials as well as a mouse study offering a potential mechanism: Archived link: https://web.archive.org/web/20230414222229/https://www.cance.... The article now lives at this URL: https://frederick.cancer.gov/news/intravenous-high-dose-vita...
I also replaced this sentence from the main text: “Results from most clinical trials suggest that modest vitamin C supplementation alone or with other nutrients offers no benefit in the prevention of cancer”, with this:
“Although there is no consensus in the literature on whether IV high dose vitamin C can affect cancer treatment outcomes, recent pre-clinical mouse studies have revealed a beneficial effect when high dose IV vitamin C is combined with immunotherapy. The effect was only observed in immunocompetent mice, suggesting that the anti-tumor effect depends in part on a functional immune system, rather than unspecific pro-oxidant activity.”
With this primary source: Vitamin C selectively kills KRAS and BRAF mutant colorectal cancer cells by targeting GAPDH https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/scitranslmed.aay8707
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Linus_Pauling&dif...
MrOllie reverted all of the edits and saying they were profringe, “blatantly fail WP:MEDRS requirements” yet couldn’t actually go into detail as to how they broke the WP:MEDRS rules, and how anything I wrote was ‘fringe’.
He was really hard to talk to, did not seem engaged in good faith discussion and seed to be wrong on the merits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MrOllie/Archive_17#c...
I reported him and was then quickly blocked by Bbb23 for a week for ‘edit warring’, with no discussion of anything else. Bbb23 refused to talk to me at first, and asked me not to write on his talk page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pazimzadeh?markasrea...
Thankfully Bbb23 has retired and it’s clear from from his page that I wasn’t the only one he wasn’t so nice to.
To be fair, I did not understand how wikipedia works at all at the time. There are many thing I could have done better - for example at the time I didn’t know you’re supposed to edit the article talk page for controversial topics, and didn’t know what edit warring even was and how that's counted. I also would have worded my edits slightly differently focusing on human trials more, leaving the negative effect of oral Vitamin C, and would have emphasized the secondary sources more. And would have edited the Vitamin C page instead of Linus Pauling's.
But upon close reading of WP:MEDRS and my edits, I don’t think my additions actually violated either the spirit or the letter of the rules. I used a secondary source which itself cites reviews of human clinical data, and I clearly used hedging language when discussing mouse studies. While it's a controversial topic, nothing that I said was pro-fringe either, or unsaid in the NIH Cancer post I cited. Even the primary source I did use was from the single most rigorous/mainstream journal Science.
Anyway, the experience turned me off of attempting edit Wikipedia for along time, and it feels like there is a cabal of senior editors/admins with poor/lazy reading skills that don’t positively contribute anything to wikipedia but are happy to aggressively police what they consider wrong and seem to have each others’ backs. It’s great to see that Bbb23 is gone though.
For me there's something magical in the reed flute (ney) that's almost trancelike, same with many traditional Persian instruments:
songs with reed flute:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijVCciFbfhM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cifAO6bPOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zRZ183KcO8
other traditional Persian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv_JhKJRr2Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWYXSndbMFg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddxrUt1Szv4
I grew up listening to music like this so I wonder what effect it has on others
and here is a musical rendition of a poem by Rumi about the reed flute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbSCUOTLZBo
Lyric translation/transliteration: https://www.icloud.com/notes/0d7PZiAnuCJFlDdhPvv2NnLcg
"Rumi, the great poet of Persia, often speaks about the ney and his great work Masnavi opens with the words “listen to the ney”. He says the pains and sorrows the soul experiences through life are like holes made in a reed flute, and it is by making these holes that a player makes the flute out of a reed. This means that the heart of man is first a reed and the sufferings and pains it goes through make it a flute which can then be used by God as the instrument for the music that He constantly wishes to produce. It was on the model of the heart of man that the first musical instrument was made, and no earthly instrument can produce that music which the heart produces, raising the mortal soul to immortality."
Sure, I have been wanting another opinion for a while. Do you want me to post here or via email?
every paper has a review section built into the background section, which goes through the same peer-review process that a review does. usually these are much better and more up to date than review articles since they're written by scientists trying to put their findings into context, rather than reviews which are often handed by professors to their PhD students/postdocs who need to fill their CV with papers after a few 'dry' research years, and often peddle their group's take on a given topic rather than being neutral.
I can't tell you the number of times that I've read something in a review then gone on to read the original cited paper and found that the review inaccurately summarized the paper. often the review author didn't even read the paper, just summarized something from the title or abstract. this happens for primary papers too, but reviews are in no way more reliable, and in my opinion the farther you get from the source data the more errors propagate.
it's also a bad policy for seemingly controversial topics. the medical establishment is composed of humans with plenty of biases and groupthink, so a perfectly good idea can be shunned or ignored for decades if it's inconvenient to the establishment. this creates a chicken and egg problem for finding funding to study those ideas, or to know they even need to be studied.
in grad school we learned to 'embrace the controversy' in grant writing. instead of picking a side, steel-man the different opinions and evidence for each, and cite the differences as a reason for further study & explain how you'll figure it out.
wikipedia doesn't need that last part, but I think it will be a good habit for editors to learn to truly critique a primary paper.
the only thing reviews have going for them is they are more accessible/skimmable to the average reader. my guess is that the rule about citing was written to make it easier to be an editor. anyway, technically the wikipedia regulations don't outright ban primary literature as long as you give the necessary caveats, but there are plenty of megalomaniacal admins don't care about nuance (e.g. MrOllie)
previously you'd inject a rabbit or other small mammal with what wanted antibodies to bind against, plus an adjuvant compound
then you'd need to screen the antibodies and figure out what they do. some antibodies will bind to your target but not neutralize it, so have to rule those out.
then I think you'd have to do amino acid sequencing on it I think and then clone the sequence in some B-cells to produce it.
there's probably a way better approach than what I just said but it's usually still going to start with stabbing an animal with your target.
wasting time and money on a drug that only works in a test tube/organoid/co-culture model is also very expensive.
we should keep funding both, and if the non-animal are good enough, it won't be difficult to convince scientists to save money by using them.
Once you have an effect, use in vitro models/cell culture to figure out potential mechanisms, then test again in animals to confirm.
If you are doing a PhD (or whatever), do you want to spend 5 years not knowing if your discovery only works in test tubes?
> reasonable confidence the risk and severity of harm from the testing will be minimal
this sounds good, but how do you actually define that? how harmful do you consider giving an animal a UTI (which has the chance to infect kidneys, etc if untreated)?
> For test animals that are or aren't harmed, allow them to live happy, (relatively) normal, natural lives
I agree on principle but for infectious disease you can't really do this without potentially releasing lab strains into the wild.
Something you didn't mention would be to try to use as many parts of an animal that you sacrifice as possible, but then again you're just cluttering expensive -80C freezer space with random tissues if you don't use them. But sometimes when doing ex vivo experiments you can turn one mouse intro multiple samples if you cut the tissues up and expose each one to different conditions, rather than treating the whole mouse. That can save mice..
consider being an organ donor and making a donation towards basic research in xenotransplantation:
https://tts.org/74-ixa/889-ixa-in-memoriam-agnes-marie-azimzadeh
https://donate.tts.org/agnes/