noirbot

Sure, I'm not denying what's in that quote - that the emphasis is usually on lighter roasts. Somewhat because there's already a number of older roasters who do nothing but dark roasts.

Many of the cups I've had at Dark Matter in Chicago are decidedly on the darker side, and they have Starry Eyes which is specifically sold as their dark roast. I don't think they post exact roast curves, so I'm not sure there's an objective way to denote what qualifies as a "real" dark roast, but I'm guessing most people who like a more classic dark roast would at least find it acceptably close. Roasters in Atlanta like Chrome Yellow, Dancing Goat, or Portrait also tend to be on the darker side, though I'm not sure if they have mainstay coffees.

It's not as if I've never had a cup of Lavazza or Folgers or Cafe du Monde to compare to. I grew up on basic coffeemaker grocery store French Roast all day every day.

For sure. I think there's some tragedy in it all just being called espresso. For many reasons, modern espresso machines aren't really producing shots by the same method as a classic machine. Improvements in pumps and temperature controls, not to mention grinders, are producing something that looks the same but may as well be a totally different drink. In the same way that an Americano isn't the same as drip coffee even though they may look the same.

I was with you up until "all third-wave beans are lightly roasted". I suppose it's literally true relative to old espresso roasts, but there's still plenty of third-wave roasts that are decently dark. Maybe not Folgers/Lavazza dark, but you can definitely find more oily/heavy roasts that aren't overly acidic.

There's also a third axis in brew technique - most old-school espresso is only vaguely the same brew method as what you'd get at a third-wave shop where the newer machines have fairly precise temperature, flow, and pressure controls, as well as more consistent grinds with less fines.

Sure, I get it! Maybe it is all just a fad that will pass. I don't hold judgement for people who enjoy a more classic espresso, but as I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I was in Europe most of 15 years ago and you'd essentially get "oh, you're one of those people" looks if you wanted anything but a dark roast espresso. The OP of this thread would likely be as annoyed by trying to get "a cup of coffee" in Italy as in any pretentious city in the world, assuming he doesn't happen to like dark roast espresso.

Both sides can be pretentious. Dogmatic attachment to tradition can be pretentious just like overzealous modernism. I certainly wouldn't order an espresso in Milan and then be upset that I dislike it, but I would find it annoying that it's difficult to find a cup of coffee I do enjoy, just like my British friends find it difficult to find a cup of tea that meets their preference, which I also think is a sub-par way to prepare a drink.

Plus, the espresso fad is kinda already long-dead in America. Sure, there's Starbucks, but no one's really getting a black coffee or espresso shot there. If anything, America's contribution to coffee that has persisted for decades is drip coffee and more recently handbrew pourovers (though Japan and others also contributed a lot there). There's a reason the Americano is essentially just espresso made to taste like drip coffee.

I think this misses the point of all of this by making any sort of objective statement here. There's nothing inherently wrong with tradition and stability of a style like Italian espresso. Someone who grew up on it may very well hate an espresso made in a different style with a different roast profile and bean origin and that's quite fine.

The issue in my mind is the dogmatic orthodoxy of people who enjoy French or Italian espresso saying that anything else is borderline immoral, or at best "pretentious". I happen to prefer more modern espresso styles, but there's also joy in a good traditional Italian shot.

But that is, in itself, a normalcy bias. I don't generally like Italian roast coffee. It's too oily and generally upsets my stomach. It's not a flavor or style I like in espresso. I'm not going to claim no one should like it - clearly people do, but if you don't like that, Italy is a really bad place to live because it's so orthodox about its espresso and doesn't support "pretentious" places that may serve something that doesn't taste "normal".

Just because a specific style has been around for years doesn't mean it's the only valid style that's not "pretentious".

But "plain" isn't a thing. There is no "plain" coffee. There's what Nestle and other old companies bought from near slave labor in various countries over the years and blended into what people expect now, but even those beans independently often taste better and different if made properly with modern technique and even basic equipment.

People are used to the specific flavor that, for instance, commercial Bunn coffee makers that haven't been properly cleaned for decades tastes like. There's not really any way to emulate that outside of intentionally buying bad equipment.

I'm still honestly confused that people have a hard time with the menu. I literally seek out going to the best and most fancy-ass coffee shops in the world when I travel and most of them will still serve you a normal Americano or Espresso if you order it. Some don't have drip/carafe coffee because that requires specific equipment and I could see that being complex, I guess, but then that's because you went to a especially high end coffee shop. I often have to go out of my way to find a shop that does pour-over. A lot of the world doesn't do drip or pour-over at all until recent times. Ten years ago, I had to go to the British expat bar in Prague to get a drip coffee because every other shop in town was espresso only and looked at you weird if you wanted an americano.

The options even then aren't usually all that complex unless you're into espresso, and then you should be used to ordering a latte/cappuccino/double shot if that's what you want. Your "black coffee" options are almost never more complex than various origins of drip coffee, where if you literally do not care, you can just order the cheapest. I'm perplexed by people who look at a menu of 4 options for drip coffee and seemingly have a mental breakdown due to complexity. The most number of drip/pour over options I've ever seen at a coffee shop was 8 and it was at the central roastery of one of the best coffee roasters in the world.

You can still buy coffee at McDonalds or 7-11 or plenty of other basic places! It's not like that was outlawed!

Sure, but that's essentially the thrust of the OP. "Look at these decadent vapid influencers drinking their expensive (but fairly priced) coffee. Why can't I just get basic cheap (exploitative wage based) coffee any more in this modern city? Surely they're the ones forsaking value and tradition."

A lot of critiques of modern coffee are based in a sort of silent "but I got used to the benefits of imperial colonialism and exploitation. How dare these new people make me consider where my drinks are from and what should be paid for them." I'm certainly not claiming that's a conscious thing - status quo bias is a big thing here, but it's odd how often "paying a living wage" and "caring about sustainable farming" is decried as decadence and depravity that's destroying the old and more honorable ways of living.

And the usual retort you get if you point that out is "but this new fancy coffee tastes worse", which always strikes me as amusing coming from folks who minutes before were claiming it all tasted the same and mocking the idea of tasting notes being real.

Having a preference for a traditional status quo blend is still a preference!

Most fancy coffee shops do do that though. If you walk in and ask for a drip coffee or an espresso, especially if you just say "I want a basic espresso", you'll probably get what you want. I'm sure there's some places that would be annoying about it, but most specialty places deal with plenty of people coming in every day not used to ordering in specialty places.

If you really want a basic coffee with the cheapest beans you can find, why would you go to a fancy shop? If anything, it's more likely to work there than going to a multi-course restaurant and trying to order a hamburger. There are other businesses that serve a "no choices" need.

This is also a huge part. A lot of the "look at this insane price for coffee" is because exploitative practices for centuries has led to people having price expectations for coffee that are unreasonable in a fair market. There's definitely crazy high end coffees that are $20 a cup for various reasons, but $6 pounds of coffee from the grocery store are also an anomaly.

I mean, it's seldom that complicated even. They just went from having one choice of espresso to, likely, at most 3. The most fancy coffee shops I've ever been to usually don't have more than a couple espresso options dialed in at any given time. If you don't care, just pick the cheapest or ask for the person's favorite.

I'm sure there is some influencer/performative aspect to this as well that the author is reacting to, but the complaint strikes me mostly as a "I was ok with the status quo, and I dislike that other people prefer things other than that". Having preferences and choices is not by default some sort of pretentious thing!

Sure, but sometimes you also want to travel. I find myself doing this a lot when I'm on a trip - you want to dive into a new culture or location, do things you wouldn't do, but you also need time to recharge and feel something a bit more normal.

Coffee shop or brewery or dive bar culture can vary some place to place, but there's usually core elements of the sort of social contract that are core to it and can provide a sense of routine or homely comfort even when you're staying at a hotel in another country. Having an experience that's 80% the same as the one you'd have back home can make it easier for you to recognize and appreciate that 20% difference sometimes and learn about a new culture.

Sure, but t-shirt and jeans is also what everyone working at an Apple Store wears. It'd be one thing if they didn't say what to wear - then I'd totally understand going a bit above, but if they specifically put in "not formal", then it seems reasonable to assume they mean "match the uniform generally".

I'd mostly agree, but with them specifically calling out "not anything formal" as part of the expectations for interview attire wouldn't be the time I'd want to be riding the line of "is this too close to formal". This isn't a job at a tailor or stylist. You're not being tested on your understanding of the roles of various garments in different levels of fashion over time.

Presumably OP had seen/visited an Apple Store before and knew what employees wore there, so it's not a mystery what the uniform is, and therefore what is probably meant by "don't wear anything formal". It's not some kind of gotcha.