nkmnz

And that gives you the right to enforce your schedule changes onto them?

What’s next? Touch-grass-as-a-Service?

You don’t seem to get it. People with kids are actually taking the metro at 5. How do you think the trash is collected in the early morning hours? The newspaper delivered? The bread baked? The shelves filled? The streets cleaned? Are those jobs only done by people without children?

Where I live, teachers teach for <20 hours a week (<30*45min), 40 weeks a year. I bet there's some room for a second shift ;)

You confuse "not wanting the government manipulating everybody's clock" with "wanting to manipulate other people's schedule".

You confuse two things. Not manipulating the clock doesn't mean that anyone forces the other changes we've discussed here upon you. We're just criticizing the fact that people point to the concept of DST and try to tell us that it's A) for our own good (it isn't), B) the only way to get more daylight (it isn't), and C) a solution to a societal problem (it isn't)

> there are some very tangible benefits when everyone starts working at the same hour

This must come from an office worker, dropping their child off at school or day care at 8, doing some chores until 9, starting work at 9:30 - or something like that. I suggest you take the bus or the metro once at 5 in the morning. You'll see plenty of people going to work. Maybe it's a local thing, but public services in Germany often start at 6 so that they can finish work before citizens start calling (and so that they can leave early and benefit from everything else still being open).

Also, there are mechanics that fix my car in the middle of the night when it breaks down – but I have to pay a membership fee, otherwise, it would be unaffordable. There are also plenty of doctors willing to work a night shift, but since we have socialist health care in Germany, it's difficult to pay them a premium - so that leaves those who triage by acuteness, not by price.

Exactly like that. Open office hours from the current start of school (Ts) -2h with supervision, self study, project work. Then regular classes from Ts +2h until the current end of school (Te) -2h, with the same offering of study time until T2 +2h. Total time in school can be reduced by 2h or increased by 2h compared to today, based on grades. Of course it will cost money. But don't get me started on the cost of having many children not fulfilling their academic potential because they are tired due to biological incompatibility with the Prussian ideal of the morning person. And now let's speak about childhood depression... or about the fact that 60% of ADHD diagnoses amongst teens vanish once their sleep is fixed.

> You are waking up into dark and going to school/work anyway.

You're spot on. Now change the problem, not the symptom.

That's mostly true(*), and we should work on making the opt-out a standard procedure where ever possible.

Instead, the public discourse centers around which minority can force the majority to follow their preferred terms in the social contract. At best, it's a zero sum game - most likely, it's a net loss for everyone if we include all externalities, especially the suppression of discussions about more individuality.

(*) DST is not a social contract, it's entirely made up by the law.

Depends on your personal preference. It's ridiculous that the politic topic is the question "should most of us suffer in the morning or should most of us suffer in evening", instead of "how could we allow for more flexible individual schedules", especially when it comes to school, opening hours of public services, and store hours.

Sunset isn't changed by DST. You adjust your schedule. You're free to do so on your own terms, without the government forcing everyone to do the same shift at the same time for the same amount of time.

Thanks for explaining!

Current or most recent data is very expensive, indeed, but researchers as well as governments should have access to data that allows them to measure the rates of change across time and extrapolate them, no?