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Actually 100% 17 days still going

My wife's last day was the 10th but I had tried to get them to stop earlier, basically put my foot down. We actually left the city that Saturday, now we are dealing with driving around northern New Hampshire with NY plates. Locals are starting to take more notice.

I think it's really people's experience. I'm in your camp, I write functional javascript, I learned clojure, I think about writing software in a way where react-redux (and re-frame) fit the paradigm and get out of the way. Vue seems like Backbone v2 after drawing inspiration from Ember and Angular

I really don't get the love around vue... I always read the glowing sentiment and go, "Ok, I'm missing something, let me go back to the vue.js docs and see what's good"

Things that are a deal breaker for me:

Template language... You can call it 'separation of concerns' all you want, but just let me generate templates using the language I already know, JSX is great

State management... I cut my teeth with Ember professionally for a few years, and really loved it up until I built a data intensive app. Having state spread across different controllers is great when you have many different routes and pages, but if one page turns in to a photoshop like app, controllers make a terrible state management tool. It doesn't seem overly complicated to me to use redux along with react-redux's connect function to connect regular functions returning JSX to your state object. Looking at Vue.js, it seems like I need to learn Ember-lite + Angular (custom directives).

Yea basically this. Built a 'big data app' using Ember, which was all well and fine until some of the routes essentially became their own apps, that were more akin to apps like photoshop. MVC really broke down for us here, and it wasn't until we introduced react / redux and slowly refactored the application until things got more manageable and sane.

In the apps that I've built, having many components manage their own private state makes it hard to coordinate said components, because all of the application state is stuffed inside different jars that you can't easily peak into.

It's been much easier to pull all app state into a central, db like structure, and allow components to connect and query that structure for whatever data they need. It makes making changes to components in the future easier, because all of my data is normalized in a structure, and it's all possibly available to any component in the app.

I've found that with MVC, if you design the private state a certain way, and in the future need largeish independent components to coordinate, well, you're going to have a bad time.

So redux or not, I'm definitely a fan managing state as it's own separate thing, and having components able to query and connect to that data structure, without having to pipe props down a tree of components, which leads to an app that's hard to change.

There weren't really 'legions' of front end devs when node came out. People were just learning backbone.js and the idea of SPA's being viable was still forming. It was not easy to pick up if you were coming from something like rails, because it had no well documented complete framework solution. The people that were doing node in the early days were legit back end folks. I am now a front end developer, but I learned on rails and I remember having a hard time 'learning' node. It had no debugger (I was used to something like pry) and was generally a collection of 'low level' libraries.

my dad is a fox news republican, a few years back we were driving for 5 hours and were listening to npr. he was basically waiting for the overt liberal bias, but instead we listened to a bunch of fascinating stories and interesting shows about a variety of topics. I read somewhere that npr isn't liberally biased, but their fan base is mostly liberal, because liberals tend to prefer news that has no bias. It's also not loud and obnoxious, which they like.

Yup, front end development is light years ahead of JS. sad

Parinfer is a huge game changer. Everyone afraid of writing lisp needs to try again using parinfer.

The issue is more that I have to add, and use an immutable library vs it being just baked in to the language. I have to convert from and to JS. Worry about setting a deep value that is regular JS. It's janky is all.

> with not very nice tooling

The tooling is the best. Figwheel is hot reload that never goes down, devcards is revolutionary, and a browser repl for live in editor evaluation...

> significantly different from the existing javascript code base you already have

It actually isn't. Clojurescript is basically javascript that's immutable first, has underscore in it's core library, and then a bunch of other awesome language constructs. The libraries use the same patterns, re-frame is a nicer, more succinct abstraction over react-redux.

> poor interop to the existing js ecosystem

The interop might be the best out there. Seriously you can write javascript in clojurescript. you can straight up import es6 jsx javascript into your clojurescript code. (thanks Google Closure)

> For javascript, that crowd of alternatives is so much larger

I mean, what are the options? Clojurescript's benefits are so much more than the language. The real pluses for clojurescript are the Google Closure compiler, hot reload, browser repl, devcards, front end libraries. The language is the cherry on top. There are no alternatives that have a comparable platform not completely alien to JS developers.

but the OO api is a bummer, give us the Clojure Atom api!!! vamos reframe!