havelhovel

“About a quarter [of Americans] (27%) say Israel is going too far in its current military operation, while about as many (25%) say it is taking the right approach; 16% of Americans say Israel is not going far enough militarily.” So more Americans support Israel’s campaign than do not.[1]

“81% of American Jews support Israel continuing its military operation to ‘recover all Israeli hostages and remove Hamas from power.’” Which implies the vast majority of “prominent American Jews” are not calling this genocide.[2]

And on this last point, this is hardly a “textbook example of genocide” when scholars of genocide contest this label[3], it is outright rejected by the US State Department[4], and casualties fall within the expectations of urban warfare experts[5]. The textbook example of genocide is the Holocaust.

All this hyperbole and generalization, just like we saw in Paul Graham’s tweet, makes it impossible to have productive discussions.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/americans-vi...

[2] https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/poll-overwhelming-majority...

[3] https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-to-define-genocid... and https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-ex...

[4] https://www.reuters.com/world/us-not-seeing-acts-genocide-ga...

[5] https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-no...

Comment · 2 years ago

> It appears to be the only one able to consistently get US citizens working for US employers in US soil fired

Can you provide some examples of Israeli lobbyists getting US citizens fired by US employers for expressing their opinions?

Comment · 2 years ago

I think that's a fair critique. Do you have any alternative metrics for evaluating the "most powerful" lobbies in the US? Because I'm curious how AIPAC and Israel get this reputation if it's not based on something objective like financial statements.

Comment · 2 years ago

I don't think that providing actual lists of top spenders is either "clever" or "disingenuous," but if you have a better way to empirically evaluate the claims being made about lobbying influence please share.

> He is talking about America's most powerful lobby FOR a foreign country.

I'm only interested in discussing the actual text that received (as of writing) 2.3 million views and is the subject of this thread, not your own revision.

> Also, your second list only includes official foreign agents, while most pro-Israel lobbying is not registered as such (notably AIPAC)

I was responding to a comment about the "Israeli lobby." Israelis are not Americans, which is why I addressed foreign spending. But since you're insinuating that AIPAC is a channel for foreign influence despite being a US organization with 3 million American members, changing its status wouldn't influence the list I provided, so I don't see the relevance of this argument to the larger question of lobbying power.